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	<title>Comments on: Good and Evil</title>
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	<link>http://www.davejustus.com/2004/10/29/good-and-evil/</link>
	<description>None Sine Causa</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 08 Sep 2008 01:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: cubicle</title>
		<link>http://www.davejustus.com/2004/10/29/good-and-evil/#comment-448</link>
		<dc:creator>cubicle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davejustus.com/2004/10/29/good-and-evil/#comment-448</guid>
		<description>"No one is wholly evil, but when people are evil enough they must be opposed, by force if necessary."

I disagree.  There are some people (not very many though) that are wholly evil, everything they touch goes bad, and everything they do has a bigger purpose which is morally curropt.  These people may be 1 out of 100, 1 out of 100, or 1 out of 100,000,000, but they do exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;No one is wholly evil, but when people are evil enough they must be opposed, by force if necessary.&#8221;</p>
<p>I disagree.  There are some people (not very many though) that are wholly evil, everything they touch goes bad, and everything they do has a bigger purpose which is morally curropt.  These people may be 1 out of 100, 1 out of 100, or 1 out of 100,000,000, but they do exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.davejustus.com/2004/10/29/good-and-evil/#comment-447</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2004 22:59:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.davejustus.com/2004/10/29/good-and-evil/#comment-447</guid>
		<description>I didn't criticize you for believing in moral absolutism.  In fact, I explicitly conceded that even if you stand by that position, you can't rest easy.

The problem is that if you assume moral absolutism, you need to get address problems of information, knowledge, and certainty.

For example, I imagine you'll admit that context plays a role in what you'd demarcate as good and evil.  Not cultural context which we'll say leads to moral relativism, but the context of a specific instance.

So for the sake of argument, let's say that Biblical law--solely as codified in the Ten Commandments--is the "true" morality.  Furthermore, let's say that we all agree to that, fully pushing moral relativity out of the picture.

Now, one of our moral precepts "thou shall not kill," meaning that we've all decided that killing is bad.  But as a absolutely universal maxim, most reasonable people would think that it's not quite right.  Is it evil to kill in self-defense?  Is it evil to kill a killer?  Is it evil to kill for food?  Only a dead vegan would think that &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; those situations are evil.

You may be tempted to rebut "that's because we didn't articulate the moral code well enough."  But that doesn't really hit the meat of the problem.  Because we could add little exceptions for all these things and we'd still run into an informational problem.  Namely:

"How do we decide if exception X applies to situation Y?"

For very simple situations that you personally witness, it's a bit of a problem, but not too much.  Generally speaking, you and other witnesses to a simple situation can probably come up with a consensus as to whether a specific exception fits or not.

But what happens with more complex situations?  Or with situations that you only learn about through unreliable means?  What happens with situations that are so complex that one person physically can't comprehend, even with perfect infromation?  What happens with simple situations that you've learned about through a source that you can only trust some of the time?

So even if moral absolutism is real, the &lt;i&gt;enforcement&lt;/i&gt; of moral absolutes collapses to an information problem that can transcend individual knowledge.  Metaphysical religions generally address this problem by leaving judgment in the hands of an omnipotent God.  Mystical/Personal ones leave it in the conscience of the moral agent, and its ability to discern right from wrong.  Civil law agrees to accept the occasional mis-enforcement and put trust in juries and trials.  Democracy and capitalism also accepts the occasional mis-enforcement and puts judgment into the hands of the electorate and market, respectively.

The common thread you'll see in all of these lasting systems is that they don't give individuals the authority to judge other individuals.  That kind of judgment is the least reliable, and the most prone to have someone commit an evil in the name of a committing a good.

[There's also a whole school of thought that rejects normative morality altogether--both absolute and relative--and leaves the resolution of conflict in the vagaries of human nature.  The presumption in this model is that human nature is no more good or evil than that of a dog, cat, or rock.  It sounds like a wierd thesis, but it's proponents (especially Nietzsche)identify it with pre-Platonic Greek ethics and argue that Platonic rationalism and Christian morality are the wierd ones that assumed that human nature is fundamentally errant or evil.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t criticize you for believing in moral absolutism.  In fact, I explicitly conceded that even if you stand by that position, you can&#8217;t rest easy.</p>
<p>The problem is that if you assume moral absolutism, you need to get address problems of information, knowledge, and certainty.</p>
<p>For example, I imagine you&#8217;ll admit that context plays a role in what you&#8217;d demarcate as good and evil.  Not cultural context which we&#8217;ll say leads to moral relativism, but the context of a specific instance.</p>
<p>So for the sake of argument, let&#8217;s say that Biblical law&#8211;solely as codified in the Ten Commandments&#8211;is the &#8220;true&#8221; morality.  Furthermore, let&#8217;s say that we all agree to that, fully pushing moral relativity out of the picture.</p>
<p>Now, one of our moral precepts &#8220;thou shall not kill,&#8221; meaning that we&#8217;ve all decided that killing is bad.  But as a absolutely universal maxim, most reasonable people would think that it&#8217;s not quite right.  Is it evil to kill in self-defense?  Is it evil to kill a killer?  Is it evil to kill for food?  Only a dead vegan would think that <i>all</i> those situations are evil.</p>
<p>You may be tempted to rebut &#8220;that&#8217;s because we didn&#8217;t articulate the moral code well enough.&#8221;  But that doesn&#8217;t really hit the meat of the problem.  Because we could add little exceptions for all these things and we&#8217;d still run into an informational problem.  Namely:</p>
<p>&#8220;How do we decide if exception X applies to situation Y?&#8221;</p>
<p>For very simple situations that you personally witness, it&#8217;s a bit of a problem, but not too much.  Generally speaking, you and other witnesses to a simple situation can probably come up with a consensus as to whether a specific exception fits or not.</p>
<p>But what happens with more complex situations?  Or with situations that you only learn about through unreliable means?  What happens with situations that are so complex that one person physically can&#8217;t comprehend, even with perfect infromation?  What happens with simple situations that you&#8217;ve learned about through a source that you can only trust some of the time?</p>
<p>So even if moral absolutism is real, the <i>enforcement</i> of moral absolutes collapses to an information problem that can transcend individual knowledge.  Metaphysical religions generally address this problem by leaving judgment in the hands of an omnipotent God.  Mystical/Personal ones leave it in the conscience of the moral agent, and its ability to discern right from wrong.  Civil law agrees to accept the occasional mis-enforcement and put trust in juries and trials.  Democracy and capitalism also accepts the occasional mis-enforcement and puts judgment into the hands of the electorate and market, respectively.</p>
<p>The common thread you&#8217;ll see in all of these lasting systems is that they don&#8217;t give individuals the authority to judge other individuals.  That kind of judgment is the least reliable, and the most prone to have someone commit an evil in the name of a committing a good.</p>
<p>[There&#8217;s also a whole school of thought that rejects normative morality altogether&#8211;both absolute and relative&#8211;and leaves the resolution of conflict in the vagaries of human nature.  The presumption in this model is that human nature is no more good or evil than that of a dog, cat, or rock.  It sounds like a wierd thesis, but it&#8217;s proponents (especially Nietzsche)identify it with pre-Platonic Greek ethics and argue that Platonic rationalism and Christian morality are the wierd ones that assumed that human nature is fundamentally errant or evil.]</p>
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