Justus For All

What about the issue of foreign aid? As I understand it. there are federal laws in place in the US that would disallow us from continuing to give them the aid that we give.

I don’t think that a Hamas victory should be a trigger for cutting off foreign aid. There is a difference between Hamas the political party/terrorist group and the Government of Palestine, even if Hamas has control over that government.

That said, in an event of a Hamas victory we should make it clear that certain actions and behaviors will cause an end to foreign aid and that the Government of Palestine must act in a responsible manner if they wish aid to continue.

I think that under Title 18, Part I, Chapter 113B, § 2339B and section 325 of 1995’s counter-terrorism bill it’s against the law for the US to offer or give any aid to a designated terrorist organization or state lead by one.

If Hamas does win, we could be in a prickly situation. Either, we remove them from the list of known foreign terror organizations, we stop giving Palestine aid, or we break our own laws, and piss off the Israelis.

You might be right about what the law says. I certainly don’t know.

I expect that legal fictions will allow Hamas to be one thing while a Palestinian Government led by Hamas to be another thing.

Dave, your comments made me laugh-kind of a bitter laugh though. You seem to be very much deluded as to the prospects of a Hamas victory(by now they’ve already won). Let’s say the U.S. keeps aiding the pallis now that (pretty much the same) terrorists are in charge. Well to begin with all that American tax payer money will be spent on bomb material. If you think I’m overexagurating think again. Hamas has always been and will always be one of the most bigotted and dangerous groups out there…and to think that Kach is on the same list with it according to (prejudiced) American terms.

America continues wasting its own money on the pallis, thus hurting Israel, hurting my own chances of surviving=I burn my American citizenship along with a couple dozen American flags. Sorry Dave…that’s just how I feel.

Dave;

So, you support giving aid to terrorist organizations through legal fictions?

Hmm…

Greg, I think we have to be realistic. Are there things that Hamas might do as leaders of the PA that would cause me to demand any assistence to Palestine be ended? Yes of course. Are there things that they could do that would convince me to continue the aid? Yes, certainly.

America provides a whole lot more aid to Israel than it does to Palestine. Perhaps you should remember that. Israelis, especially conservative Israelis, burning American flags is a pretty good way to alter that situation if that is what you are after.

I take a long view on this, we have to strike a balance between supporting a democratic Palestine and not supporting terrorist groups. What Hamas does in the coming days will be determanitive.

Certainly I don’t think that they are more ‘tainted’ by their past than Arafat was by his. They have to make clear though, once they form a government, what the policies of that government are, including no terror. My guess is that they will do so, for a lot of reasons.

Tsychoduk, That is what I expect will happen, not necessarily what I support. In theory at least, money given to the Palestinian Authority should not be transferable to Hamas the political party. This would mean that even if Hamas does not totally abandon destruction of Israel rhetoric we are not funding such activity.

I have not yet decided exactly what conditions we should have on continual Palestinian aid and dialogue with the Palestinians. The limits on what I have decided at this point, is that just because Hamas is in charge does not mean we cannot provide aid to them no matter what they do. The ball is certainly in their court though, and they have to make a clear statement as to the policies of their Government.

Perhaps, just as only Nixon could go to China and only Sharon could unilateraly withdraw from Gaza, only Hamas will be able to make peace with Israel. Stranger things have happened.

Dave: Given, Israel would barely be able to survive without American aid. But do you actually believe this aid is one-sided. Ponder this: Israel is America’s only(I repeat ONLY)real ally in the Middle East. Through Israel America can push along its peaceful/democratic agenda to other countries in the region. Not only that. Israel, as an ally will always be willing to provide a military base for American operations in the Middle East without American personnel having to be permanently on the look-out like they have to be in Saudi Arabia or Kuwait-countries that need American aid only as a means for self-defense; not because they support America.

So, Dave, don’t be mistaken: Israel helps America as much, if not more, than America helps Israel.

But I’d rather not receive any aid from America and completely destroy any connections I still bare with the U.S. if the U.S. is willing to talk to Hamas.

As for some of our previous arguments, the election win of the Hamas should suffice to prove the points I’ve been making all along. The palestinian people do not want peace with Israel as they clearly showed by voting Hamas. Not did they ever wanted it before; it’s just more clear for people like yourself-those who’re always willing to give the bad guys a second chance no matter how many times they prove not to be worthy of a second chance-that the palestinians want one thing and one thing only: Israel’s annihilation.

Dave: If you still support a free and Jewish State of Israel, it’s about time you looked reality in the face.

Greg.

First, I doubt attacks will increase in the immediate future. Hamas has more or less been honoring the ‘truce’ and they have more incentive now to do so than before.

Second, I don’t think a Hamas victory necessarily shows that the Palestinian people don’t want peace. Hamas won primarily because Fatah was extremely corrupt. Given a choice between the two, I would be hard pressed to pick. Now, it is obvious that calling for the destruction of Israel is not a barrier to electability in Palestine (big surprise) and that is unfortunate.

Third, Israel is probably more secure with Hamas in charge of Palestine that it was with Hamas not participating in the process at all (as was the case previously.) Governments can be detered, terrorist groups generally cannot.

We could argue about the geo-political benefits and determents of the Israeli alliance to America. In general, I think our alliance with Israel is not a benefit to us personally at this time, but would be if things really hit the fan. I support the alliance with Israel because it is the right thing to do though, regardless of whether it benefits us or not.

That is not to imply Israel hasn’t been a good friend to the U.S., it has, but it is not a particularly ‘useful’ friend at this time, and being a friend to Israel has it’s own costs.

In theory at least, money given to the Palestinian Authority should not be transferable to Hamas the political party. This would mean that even if Hamas does not totally abandon destruction of Israel rhetoric we are not funding such activity.

However, Hamas the political party now controls the government. Hamas politicians ran on Hamas the Terrorist’s political platform. IE they share ideas, leadership, and possibly tactics.

I would advocate we wait and see just what Hamas will do with their new found power. Under the current rules of engagement, we can no longer give foreign aid to Palestine. If Hamas proves to be a player in the peace process, and if they renounce violence, then I would fully support reinstating aid to Palestine.

I certainly hope that the political process matures Hamas, but, only time will tell.

Tsykoduk: I completely agree. If Hamas does,indeed, give up on its long-held policy and goal of destroying Israel and bringing about the rule of a “Palestinian” state where Israel currently exists, if they turn in their weapons(to whom though?) I think it may be possible to negotiate a final agreement even with them as much harteache as they’ve brought to the citizens of my country.

I would be very weary of any progress the Hamas makes in the meantime. As for President Bush I applaud him heartily on (ones again) making the right decision and cutting off aid to the pallis in the meantime at least. That should be enough to make the Hamas accept and the existenc of Israel and do whatever else the White House expects of them.

Now it’s on to the Iranian threat. And the only way to deal with that is to bomb the bastards into submission as the Americans did in Iraq at the outset of the war. It’s up to America, the “world-savior” to complete this, next mission.

I’m keeping my U.S. passport safe by my side!You were right, Dave! Thanks.

Greg.