I know that this is a highly charged issue for both Probligo and even more for Greg. I want to thank both of you for keeping this discussion relatively civil. I do believe that both of you want ‘what is best’ even though you disagree on what that is.

I hope that everyone can continue to be civil in this, and other, posts. I value my commenters highly (I wish I had more!) and I think you add a lot to this site. Ranting is fine on occasion, but it is helpful if it comes to a point as well.

Also, if you want a really long rant, it might be more appropriate to put it on a blog of your own. You can link to it in the comments, or email me and I will put an update and link in the main post.

Greg, your story is an almost total reflection of the Palestinian story. Why? Well perhaps if you read the story of Moshe Dayan’s tractors you might see it. Or the reports from Haaretz about Sharon, and other government leaders, “controlling” Palestinian terrorism by the use of provocation and killings might give you a clue or two.

I get “one side” of the story continuously and ad nauseum from the MSM, from my local paper, from the US… It is continuously Palestinian terrorism, Israeli defence, Palestinian suicide bombers, Israeli helicopters…

My problem is that I am way too sceptical of information coming my way. I can not accept as God’s gospel everything (and anything) that I am told.

For that reason, I go to sites like LofC. I dig a little deeper to judge the validity of his statements, in the same way as I do for MsM and Dave here as well.

Generally, Dave is pretty objective, and that is why I suspect that he gets such widely differing comment. It is certainly the reason why I keep coming back, and too it is the reason why I get so ranty when he is less objective in my view.

A couple of notes – no I have not served in the army, or any other of our forces. The last “serving” member of my family was my grandfather who spent five years on Pamir between NZ and NW American ports during WW2. My father was called up for Pacific service three days prior to VJ day and then stood down. I have lost a friend in Vietnam, a brother in a road accident, both my parents to natural causes… That perhaps is why I personally value so highly those who have seen active service for my country.

Finally, Greg, I look at the maps of the original 1948 Israel, the changes following the 1967 war, and the areas occupied today, and I wonder. Perhaps you can justify the expansion of Israel for me. Perhaps all of that land was purchased from the Palestinians.

Somehow, I have my doubts.

Yes, probligo…Israeli soldiers have certainly comitted atrocities over the years. Imagine the following situation though: Your little brother was killed in a terror attack and your parents face sniper fire every time they go to work. You’re on night duty all alone in the middle of the Judean hills with no soul in sight. All of a sudden some “Palestinian” kids start throwing stones at you our of nowhere.

Now according to official military engagement policy in the most democratic country in the world aka Israel, when there’s no direct danger to your life as in this situation you must yell “Stop” in Arabic. When the enemy tries to close in and you’re in the line of indirect fire you must first shoot at the legs and only when your life is in danger can you actually shoot to kill…very different from American army rules of engagement mind you.

The kids start yelling deragotory comments in broken Hebrew calling you a coward, a pig, a dirty Jew, etc. You fire several rounds in the air. They continue and come closer. You aim for one of their feet and end up shooting the poor loser in the head. Army command repremends you, you lose your rank, you face prison time and you’re stained with this incident for the rest of your life.

That’s what happens when we Jews live in constant mortal danger not wanting to even think what may be happening to our children as they’re on their way to school and back.

You live in a violence-free place, I’m sure, and since you oppose the war in Iraq, I’m also sure none of your kids serve in the army. I haven’t served in the army either coming to Israel at a late age but I’ve been exposed to Arab gunfire in the so-called “settlements”-lands bought with Jewish money in the end of the last century and captured by the Arab Legion before being freed by the IDF.

This is my last point as far as this argument is concerned. I believe I’ve said enough to make you at least ponder your position. With all due respect I think you’re scum if you continue your repugnant anti-Semitic disection of the Irgun as compared with “Palestinian” murderers.

The primary reason that Palestinians are still in refuge camps in Jordan, Syria, and Lebananon is that they are a useful prop for corrupt Arab regimes who use them to draw attention away from domestic problems.

Refugee camps have been used as terror bases. Sometimes, the IDF has gone overboard. War sucks.

Hamas has largely followed the ‘truce’ they declared resulting in few Israeli deaths. The ‘fence/wall’ also may be a factor in this. Israel as continued their policy of killing Hamas leaders. There have been civilians caught in the crossfire, an unavoidable consequence of using civilians as cover. I believe Hamas has killed numerous Palestinians over the past year (as has Fatah) to an extent, both groups have lessened their focus on Israel as an internal struggle for power has been brewing, only a portion of which is playing out in the democratic arena.

While I don’t claim that any specific story you have quoted in innaccurate, it would be well to remember that not all stories of Jewish atrocities in Palestine have proved accurate.

Regardless of all of that, I don’t exactly see what you point is in all of this.

Sometime you might like to tell me your explanation for the number of displaced Palestinians living in refugee camps.

Sometime you might like to tell me your rationale for Israel army demolishing refugee camps.

K Pablo – I suggest that you go back, read that site again. It is Irgun‘s own site. While you are there you might like to read “Black Sabbath”. Sound familiar? It should – those are among the “tactics” used by Israeli army forces against the Palestinians.

Then read this from Lawrence of Cyberia…

When I first got to Hebron I wouldn’t open fire on little children. And I was sure that if I ever killed or hurt anyone, I’d go so crazy that I’d leave the army. But finally I did shoot someone, and nothing happened to me. In Hebron I shot the legs off of two kids, and I was sure I wouldn’t be able to sleep anymore at night, but nothing happened. Two weeks ago I hurt a Palestinian policeman, and that didn’t affect me either. You become so apathetic you don’t care at all. Shooting is the IDF soldier’s way of meditating. It’s like shooting is your way of letting go of all your anger when you’re in the army. In Hebron there’s this order they call “punitive shooting”: just open fire on whatever you like. I opened fire not on any sources of fire but on windows where there was just wash hanging to dry. I knew that there were people who would be hit. But at that moment it was just shoot, shoot, shoot.

– Extract from an interview with Israeli soldiers (who are identified by pseudonyms) conducted by Israeli journalist Uri Blau and printed in Kol Ha’Ir, a Jerusalem weekly, in September 2001. Translated from Hebrew by Tal Haran, and published in English translation in the April 2002 edition of Harpers Magazine.

And Dave, when you have finished, perhaps you can tell me how many Israelis have been killed by Hamas in the past twelve months, and just to keep it even, how many Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces in the same period.

Finally -

It was the shooting of Asma Mughayar that swept away any lingering doubts I had about how it is the Israeli army kills so many Palestinian children and civilians.

Asma, 16, and her younger brother, Ahmad, were collecting laundry from the roof of their home in the south of the Gaza Strip in May last year when they were felled by an Israeli army sniper. Neither child was armed or threatening the soldier, who fired unseen through a hole punched in the wall of a neighbouring block of flats.

The army said the two were blown up by a Palestinian bomb planted to kill soldiers. The corpses offered a different account. In Rafah’s morgue, Asma lay with a single bullet hole through her temple; her 13-year-old brother had a lone shot to his forehead. There were no other injuries, certainly none consistent with a blast.

Probligo, you have really outdone yourself with this facile, sweeping generalization. The link is a nice attempt at legitimizing this astounding leap.

The Irgun/Etzel/Irgun Zvai Le’umi was not a terrorist organization in the modern meaning of the word. Every raid on the British was accompanied by a warning for all civilians to leave the area. Every act of war served the purpose of pressuring the British to end their policy of preventing Jews fleeing the Holocaust or, later on, coming to Israel as Holocaust survivors and of creating a Jewish State in Palestine. It’s important to have an independent state for the Jewish people if only to prevent another holocaust. Let me explain: as long as we have a home, a safe harbor, a strong and vigilant protector we’re safe from persecution wherever it may occur(and it does occur). Jews in these countries can always come home to Israel, thus insuring their safety.

In recent years though, even Israel has become killing grounds for Jews. Like any democratic country we’re interested in peace and willing to compromise, to hold negotiations and do whatever else it takes to live in peace with our neighbors. The problem lyes not with us but with the 20+ Arab states surrounding us who’d like nothing better than our anihilation. That’s why we’re fighting-rather defending ourselves. Were you awar of the name of the Israeli Army?-IDF. Israeli Defense Forces. We will do everything in our power to prevent another holocaust including not holding negotiations with an entity that wants to wipe us out. Would America negotiate with El-Qaida!?

In peace and changing my approach to you to one of mutual respect and a resolve to “agree to disagree”, Greg.

Why should anyone deal with the likes of Israel, for exactly the same reason?

The history of Irgun – http://www.etzel.org.il/english/index.html – and its associated organisations reads little different from that of Fatah and Hamas.

The reason? Because the greatest enemy of peace is not terrorism or any other -ism. It is the refusal to communicate…

Now how u like ‘em apples, lil’ one!!!?