Justus For All

You’ve way too optimistic, as I’ve stated previously, Dave. Hamas has, by now, rejected the ultimatum given by Arafat’s man Abu-Mazen and please don’t think Abu-Mazen means well either. He’s just a lot smarter than Hamas leadership and wants to annihilate Israel the slow way rather than in one strike.

BTW, Dave: please tell me exactly where this mythical “Palestine” of yours exists…or do you want to deny the existence of Israel and place a “Palestine” in its place?

‘Palestine’ is no more mythical than Israel, indeed since Israel was created by United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine, it seems obvious that Palestine must be a real thing if Israel is a real thing.

Of course you know that I don’t deny the existence of Israel or wish to replace it with Palestine. You however do deny the existence of Palestine and even Palestinians and wish to replace Palestine with Israel.

I want two states, hopefully living in peace with each other, but at a minimum seperated enough so that they can largely ignore one another.

Dave: don’t be deceived. Had it not been for the U.N. an independent Jewish State would still have arisen. It was just a matter of time before the warriors of the Etzel, Lehi and Haganah forced the Brits out. In fact had it not been for the U.N.’s partition plan and had the British stuck to their word, today, Israel would include the East side of the Jordan River and would be 3 times it’s actual size.

As for Palestine, you’re right. Were I in a position of power I would deny Israeli Arabs a homeland b/s this “homeland” isn’t justified politically(nearly 15 years of the intifada) nor historically(Arabs living in Israel have always been known as Arabs and “Palestine” was only created by the Romans who wanted to add insult to injury having routed Bar-Kochba’s rebellion and sent the Jews to exhile).

I take exception to the idea that any region or nation that didn’t exist before Roman times isn’t real or legitimate. Why not simply go back 5000 years and decide that anything that isn’t Sumerian isn’t a ‘real’ place or nation?

I am also quite sure that without international support, there would be no State of Israel today.

The Palestinians have forged an identity seperate from other Arabs. Just as other groups forge their own idenity. I cen think of no way that you can justify the existence of Israel that, if one was fair, would not justify the existence of Palestine save divine right. Divine right is an arguement that I reject completely.

Greg - a few problems with your formulation:

1. I don’t understand what you’re getting at when you quarrel with the designation “Palestine.” The area that’s today Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip was heavily and predominantly Arab pretty much up until 1948. The term “Palestine” is a useful placeholder to frame the question of the fate of the 2 million or so Arabs who currently live in the West Bank. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that you de-legitimize the term “Palestine.” What have you achieved? What are you really getting at?

2. You state that Israel is legitimate because it sustained military victories, especially in 1948; indeed, you say that Israel should have been much bigger than it is because of its miltiary capability. You’re essentially making a “might makes right” argument here. Two problems with that: (1) you take away a lot of the better arguments for the legitimacy of Zionism; and (2) you make it legitimate for Palestinians to use violent means to achieve their ends.

Dave: with or without international(American) support there would be a Jewish State simply because we have the willpower and the brains that the Arabs lack to drive us from here. We have dreamt of a land of our own since the 2nd century A.D. and nothing–not even America of Russia can, could, or will stop us from achieving our dream: “to live a free nation in our land.”-Ha’tikva

And Dave, I didn’t say any nation that didn’t exist before Roman times doesn’t have the right to exist. What I meant when I said: “‘Palestine’ was only created by the Romans who wanted to add insult to injury having routed Bar-Kochba’s rebellion and sent the Jews to exhile’ is that the area of the world presently known as Israel became “Palestine” only when the Romans renamed it for a tribe the Israelites had fought throughout their history beginning with the conquest of Canaan by Joshua. That has nothing to do with the “Palestinians” “not having the right to exist” as you seem to think I was claiming. In fact I believe the Israeli Arabs have all the rights in the world to exist; I just don’t give any credit to the name they’ve chosen for themselves as it is historically invalid.

HonestPartisan: you’re NOT an “honest partisan.” You’re revising history when you write that the area previously known as “Palestine” was “heavily and predominantly Arab pretty much up until 1948.” In fact only 500,000-700,000 lived in present day Israel on the dawn of the War for Independence(1947-’48). You also say there are now 2 million Palestinians refugees. For a counterpoint, read my next post on HearOIsrael.blogpost.com.

Thats an interesting thesis Greg. Jews have wanted Israel as a homeland for thousands of years, they are able to reclaim it only after large amounts of international sympathy resulting from the horrors of the holocaust, but even if they hadn’t had that sympathy they would have succeeded anyway. Doesn’t make a lot of sense honestly.

Palestine being named originally by the Romans, regardless of their motivation is pretty much irrellevant.

I believe that the time of the partition, there were about 300,000 Jews in Israel/Palestine, so as a whole the entire region was predominately Arab. Whether or not 500-700k counts as ‘heavily populated’ or not is probably somewhat subjective, but certainly not wrong enough to call such a claim historical revisionism.

I am not terribly concerned with what was and endless debate over who was right when and what historical wrongs happened. Every nation on earth was founded in the blood of other peoples. Its ugly, but its the truth. I am concerned with what we should do now, with things as they are.

As it is, there are millions of people in the occupied territories. It is wrong to displace them with forced movement or ethnic cleansing and they certainly deserve a voice in their own governance. Given those options, either Israel has to make them full citizens, or Israel has to give them their own land.

Since Israel wants to maintain its Jewish nature, and certainly won’t countance Jews being a minority in their nation a Palestinian state is the only remaining option. The exact borders of that state can be negotiated on, but in essence it should be the occuppied territories. A bit here and a bit there that Israel needs for defensive purposes can be justified, trying to take the entire thing and forcibly remove the Palestinians cannot.

Dave, what can I say…I agree with you on this one. It’s impossible to designate all Palestinian Arabs living both in Israel proper and in the territories Israeli citizens(the one-state solution) so we are left with no choice other than to help found a Palestinian state. I’m hopeful that it won’t include the large “settlement blocs.”

And yes, you’re right. There were approximately 300,000 in Mandate Palestine and about 6-700,000 Arabs so whether this was a heavily populated area is in fact a subjective question.

From the best of Wikipedia -

Population of Palestine 1900 600,000, of which 94% Arab.

Therefore about 560,000 arab, 40,000 non-arab.

UNSCOP report 1948.

Population 1.9 million, approx 600,000 Jews, 1.3 million arabs.

FWIW…

Can you fill the gaps?