Nobody’s claiming that this is VJ day. But it may be Midway. People celebrated that victory when they heard about it, even though they fully understood that the Japanese were not about to “capitulate.” Of course, back then people were less interested in seizing every possible excuse to piss in America’s Wheaties.

Would the US capitulate if AlQaeda were to assassinate GWB? Like h3!! you would!

So, then, why should the death of one man be the victory that you claim it to be?

Shia Islam places great emphasis on its martyrs. Ahmadinejad’s sect, which believes it is living in end-times anyway, might find it acceptable to wipe out Israel at the expense of massive retaliatory U.S. response. They can do it without a “return address” on the bomb, as some commentators have observed. In such a context, I’m not sure containment is a viable option for very long. You are betting that Iran’s mullahcracy are all rational actors. Some might be; it is not at all clear to me that we are dealing with a monolithic ruling regime there. Potentially exploitable rifts must exist.

I think, given the history and character of Iran’s past negotiations with Jimmy Carter (see Guests of the Ayatollah by Mark Bowden for an excellent account), they will pursue a strictly Fabian diplomacy. They will inflame an outcry from leftists and the press in the U.S. and U.K. until domestic pressure forces some asinine compromise. God help us if a Democrat is in office.

This is quickly becoming the Standard Anti War Point. But is it really your position that we should never celebrate a victorious battle until we’ve won the entire war? If so, you should know that you’re asking people to behave in a way that is unique in human history.

Good luck with that.

In 1991 Saddam was perhaps a year or two away from nuclear weapons. If he had waited to attack Kuwait until he had them, it would have been very difficult to reverse that conquest, and certainly it would have been far more dangerous to do so.

We may end up having to live with containment. I suspect if we do though, we won’t be at all happy about it.

Patrick, that is the kind of sense that I would have supported 200% had it been expressed prior to the invasion of Iraq – irrespective of the justification and rationale.

As for dealing Iran to Russia and China, “you support their direction – you deal with the consequences” is a sentiment I have expressed myself in the past.

Dave, there is only one small fear that I have on the death of Zarqawi – which of the rabid dogs in the pack is going to replace him. I hear from the Beeb this morning that there is a good chance that much of the command structure may have been taken out in this one strike. Even if that is so, I am not going to shout “Hurrah!!” until the insurgency, sectarian killings, and political disorder has reduced at least.

Re: Iran (we’re getting off subject here, but I always enjoy these types of talks) – you’re right, it is a bit too premature, assuming the goal is ultimately getting Iran to stop enrichment now. On the other hand, there is progress if the shorter term goal is to get Russia and China to be on our side and, when the time comes, to say to them “hey, we really tried everything you asked us to” and, we hope, get their support.

I think that containment may end up being the only option we can pursue at this point, considering the complex world dynamics and the very low image the US has with most of the UN allies. But containment isn’t so bad either. If we can truly effectively contain an enemy, is it any different than destroying him? Sort of like, if a tree falls in the forest…

I was clearly wrong on the first account, and probably wrong on the second. Even if their were domestic considerations, the cause was just and I should have supported it regardless. At the very least I should have hoped that it would work.

It is obvious that Zarqawi’s specific actions in recent years were only made possible by our pressence in Iraq. What we don’t know of course is what he would have done instead. He could have been the next Mohammad Atta. He is probably the best argument there is for ‘fighting them there so we don’t fight them here.’

Certainly though the ‘yes it was good but’ that is coming from a lot of the left today is not terribly admirable. I can understand the impulse, but I don’t think it is correct, and I certainly don’t think it will help them politically.

As for Iran, I think you are premature in calling it ‘progress.’ Pretty much we are where things were several months ago with the exception that we are offering Iran more. I don’t see any real reason for Iran to agree at this time.

Even if they do agree, I worry that it won’t actually solve anything. We will be bribing them, but there is no real reason that they should stay bribed. They will still be seeking nuclear weapons. At the most this might buy us a couple more years (not a horrible outcome, but hardly optimum) and it may be far more difficult to get any international consensus next time (and it hasn’t been easy this time.) It is possible that this deal will Iran, if it goes though, will come to be regarded much like Clinton’s deal with North Korea.

I think that that is the responsible way to respond to good news if you’re on the left. That way you can show your support for the progress being made, but still be mindful that this progress was only necessary due to previous political actions you didn’t agree with.

I’ve seen a few responses so far, and none of them very good. At one blog, they pointed out Bush had a chance to get this guy a couple years ago. I think that’s unfair to everyone, since it assumes that we know *this* man would be the one to enter the Iraq vacuum and be the figure head of the new terrorist movement there.

Another, on kos in the comments, kept harping on how “justice” and “death” are not the same thing. I think that’s just silly in this case, and it is responses like that that rally those on the right. In fact, the two left responses I’ve seen are at direct odds with each other (we should have killed him sooner vs. we shouldn’t have killed him and instead should have arrested him).

I think that if anyone who opposes the war is going to be honest with himself, there has to be some acknowledgment that there *is* a slight disappointment when good news comes in, and there *is* equally an opposite reaction when bad news comes in (Haditha, for example). While folks like Ann Coulter will go on that the left cheers for Haditha and cries for today’s news, they are way over the top.

However, it would be dishonest for me to say that much smaller levels of satisfaction or dissatisfaction come with the bad and good news. It’s only human.

So the responsible thing to do is to get over those initial feelings and see the progress for what it is: progress. Then go back and stay focussed on your core message: you oppose the war and this progress wouldn’t have had to have been made had things played out differently.

Perhaps one could point out that recent efforts with Iran show that giving a little in negotiations might be a way to achieve progress diplomatically. I certainly am very happy with what is going on with Iran, and I think that, while it was a huge cost to pay, the US leadership has learned a lesson about how to work with these problem countries.

Basically, U.S. foreign policy is irrelevant if you observe that Islamists are motivated by an expansionist perversion of religion. U.S. foreign policy is also less relevant all along “Islam’s bloody perimeter” (Bernard Lewis’s term): Kosovo, Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, South Phillipines, East Timor, etc. The problem the world has with Jihadists is not because these people are pursuing a legitimate grievance very aggressively. That is, of course, the position articulated by bin Laden’s fatwas, often mindlessly parroted by suicidal leftist pseudo-pacifists.

So I dismiss out of hand the “there wouldn’t be a Zarqawi” crap. I’m just happy that “there isn’t a Zarqawi anymore” thanks to superior firepower.

In closing, al Qaeda in Iraq has tried to put a brave face on events: “The death of our leaders is life for us.”

La Ch’aim!