Justus For All

Dave, I am not surprised. I heard this report yesterday morning on the radio and thought then that it was no more than I expected.

I too will watch with interest to see just what actual evidence is produced by both sides - Israel and Palestine.

In the end though, the answer will probably be “Who do you believe” and if, like me, you believe neither then it gets difficult.

Yes, on the second example you are right. But then if there is video of an F16 shooting a rocket at a small crowd of people it is difficult to deny the source of the shooting, huh! I could ask the question, “Why was the second rocket attack necessary?”, but that would probably be taken as anti-semitic so I will just leave the thought instead…

Actually I wouldn’t think that asking if a second rocket attack was necessary would be anti-semitic.

It is saying that the Jews are just killers and liars that I find anti-semtic.

I think it perfectly reasonable to question the assination policy, the settlements, the level at which collateral damage is acceptable and all of that.

At the same time though, we have to acknowledge that in the main, Palestinian civilians killed by Israelis are collateral damage where other targets were what was desired while Iraeli civilian casualties were in fact that target.

That doesn’t mean one can’t criticise Israel. But a certain degree of humility I think is called upon those of us who are far from the dangers of these terrorist attacks when we level our criticism. And while I have higher expectations of Israel than Palestine because Israel is a functioning representative democracy, failing to criticize Palestinians for their wrong-doing while criticizing Israel is a moral mistake.

“…while I have higher expectations of Israel than Palestine because Israel is a functioning representative democracy, failing to criticize Palestinians for their wrong-doing while criticizing Israel is a moral mistake. ”

Dave, agreed to a point.

I also believe that holding Israel out as the epitome of virtue and righteousness, and failing or refusing to recognise that their part in the recent history of the Levant is little better than that of whom they are fighting - despite their functioning representative democracy - is an equally mistaken morality.

I like this sentence:

“holding Israel out as the epitome of virtue and righteousness, and failing or refusing to recognise that their part in the recent history of the Levant is little better than that of whom they are fighting”

With a move like that, you could lead the majors in stolen bases. No one here (or likely anywhere) believes that Israel is “the epitome of virtue and righteousness.” (Although there was this one guy who lived there…) But its a long way from “not the epitome of righteousness” to “little better than their enemies.”

In “the recent history of the Levant” that troubles you so, the Israelis built a wall and have sometimes accidentally killed civilians while attacking legitimate military targets. That makes the Israelis a flawed society, struggling for their survival while trying to remain civilized. Hamas and Fatah have repeatedly and intentionally blown up buses full of schoolchildren and cafes full of old ladies. That makes the Palestinians terror organizations barbarians, knowing only hate and seeking only to kill and destroy. So, then, let me say this unequivocally:

Israel is not the the epitome of virtue and righteousness.

Israel’s behavior is a lot better than that of her enemies.

It seems to me that there are two types of criticism. One is given based upon the hope that the subject of the criticism will improve. The other is given based upon the hope that the subject of the criticism will fail.

The two may appear similar, but are usually pretty easy to differentiate.

“The other is given based upon the hope that the subject of the criticism will fail. ”

Dave, the obvious implication being that is what I am doing.

Wrong.

I want BOTH sides to succeed, in the best interests of ALL of the people who live there.

If the shoe fits…

Even giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your intentions, the arguments you make are typical of those who do not wish Israel well. I have also never seen anything from you that establishes any credibility to your claim that you do wish Israel well or support it in any way.

From what you have written that I have seen, Israel has never done anything right and the Palestinians have never done anything wrong (or at least anything that is not excusable).

If, as you claim, you are a friend to Israel perhaps you could demonstrate that.