Justus For All

First….how about making jail less comfortable? While that may not be the entire solution it is at least part of the problem.

second…I doubt we have the entire story. What is the chance that this man has commited crimes in the past? Once that question is answered with details on the crime (felony or not) He seems pretty familier will prison.

thridly…i doubt the goverment funded training would be any better than the goverment funded schools which are now ran. Maybe a system of sending old people back to college, make them get student loans like the rest of of. If we are lucky, they might end up work a few extra years, make a little more money, and stay off social security, there by saving the world.

fourthly…a man so inclined to work will, a man not inclined to won’t. No matter how much goverment funding you throw at this guy, if he does not want to work he won’t. That is like i like the college idea better. The market place knows how to handle college grads, not old people.

Cube seems to have given us a very “knee jerk” reaction to the problem. Thanks!

One could make an arguement that jails are too comfortable I suppose. That would have to be done on the merits of whether or not the punishment fit the crime and all of that.

Finding jail to be a better alternative than life on the outside does not seem very relevant to that debate.

As for having the whole story, of course we don’t. Still, given what we know about him, that he was contently employed in 2003 and only lost his job when his company went out of business, a stint in jail doesn’t seem too likely.

The problem with sending old people to college, whether on their dime or the governments, is that it simply doesn’t make sense to invest several years in education for only a couple of years of work. I think it great if older people want to go to school to learn, and wonderful if they can afford to do so, but as career training at that stage it really is not a great idea.

“One could make an arguement that jails are too comfortable I suppose. That would have to be done on the merits of whether or not the punishment fit the crime and all of that.”

I disagree, I am not talking about work camps here (though I like the idea). Just take away TV, serve the SAME three nutirous meals every day, take away the work out rooms, take away video games, and give them more books (admittly at a thrid grade level) and you have stopped some of this stuff from happening though not all.

There are a few options in America, work, school, or welfare. This man choose a sub type of the thrid. Apparently, he decided that jail was better than walfare and that in and of itself seems to be a problem. We must also keep walfare from being better than work, which is another problem.

Cube, I think your picture about what prison is like is based too much on the so-called “white collar” prisons, in which it’s always portrayed as being a place in which people aren’t really being punished.

I toured a medium security prison… it’s not a place you’d want to spend your vacation at. The weight rooms are not like privately-owned gyms, they resemble high school weight rooms, and are there simply as a way for inmates to relieve stress. The food served reminded me more of what high school cafeteria food is like. Television time is restricted… an inmate can’t just plop himself down whenever he feels like it.

In this particular prison I toured, I learned that if an inmate decides not to participate in programs that are designed to rehabilitate them, they are then forced to wear a different color of pants… essentially, they get “singled out.”

As far as offering books on a “third-grade level” is concerned, I talked to plenty of people who were involved with prisons and they said that education is an effective tool for rehabilitating prisoners because a prisoner who receives some form of education or useful training is far less likely to return to prison than somebody who isn’t involved. So if you have something that is effective in keeping somebody from becoming a repeat offender, removing it makes no sense at all.

That’s not to say every criminal should be coddled. Obviously, there are crimes which require harsher punishments, which is why maximum security prisons exist.

But if you really want prison to become a place people are even less likely to want to go, a better solution is to house the so-called “white collar criminals” with the so-called “blue collar criminals” and not keep them separated.

Of course, I have never toured a “white-collar prison” so I may not have all my information straight there. But I think you are assuming too much about a all prisons being attractive, when they really are not.

To address Dave’s question, I think it’s obvious we have a man who really wanted to find a job, but wasn’t willing to accept minimum wage.

I don’t know if some type of incentive could be available to encourage companies to hire people of this man’s age at a wage that pays better than current minimum wage. Of course, incentives are debated greatly as to whether or not they actually work.

While I don’t agree with everything Cube wrote, I do agree knowing more about the man himself would help. What is his education, for example? If he never got a college degree, for example, his options would obviously be limited.

That’s not to say he should head out to get a college degree or other education… if he was unwilling to take a minimum wage job, that would suggest that he couldn’t afford to pay for such education, and there’s no guarantee he’d be able to get a government loan, and if he did, if he would be able to pay it back.

It’s a tricky situation. I will say, though, that I seriously doubt he has a criminal background. He probably just thought prison was a better option because then he doesn’t have to pay for meals or housing, and because he’s likely to be sent to a minimum security prison, he probably thinks he’ll have less to worry about there.

Of course, my earlier response was painting the picture about medium security prisons, which do have weight rooms available for inmates, but again, I think all the news we hear about what prisoners get while there tends to surround minimum security facilities, which are not the same as other facilities.

I certainly agree that we would need to know more, as I made clear in the original post. We would not only need to know about this person in particular, but also know if his situation (very poor employment prosepects as he neared retirement) was very unusual or reletively common to determine what, if anything we shoudl do about it.

That said, I don’t think it is a useless exercise to assume that his employment prospects were quite poor and that his standard of living would be reduced to an unacceptable level. I think it also, for the purpose of an excercise at least, to assume this is not horribly uncommon and to then consider what, if anything can be done.

Obviously, without more information I wouldn’t advocate doing anything to solve this ‘problem’ but thinking of possibilities is probably not a waste of time.

“I think it also, for the purpose of an excercise at least, to assume this is not horribly uncommon and to then consider what, if anything can be done.”

Ok….take away his goverment funded retirement, if he is convicted of a fenonly. That might keep him honest.

As to giving him incentives to behave himself, i perfer the stick over the carrot in this case.

“I toured a medium security prison… it’s not a place you’d want to spend your vacation at. The weight rooms are not like privately-owned gyms, they resemble high school weight rooms, and are there simply as a way for inmates to relieve stress. The food served reminded me more of what high school cafeteria food is like. Television time is restricted… an inmate can’t just plop himself down whenever he feels like it.”

None of those points really take away from my point of making prison more uncomfortable. Taking away the gyms, making the food worse (but nutrious), and taking away the TV all would help in acheving that goal. If you want prisonors to relive stess, you should put them to work growing their own food and building more prisons.

OK, Cube, let me ask you this: What if this man in question said all he cared about was getting a job in which he could afford to pay for rent, utilities and food, and saw prison as a way of getting a job in exchange for all three of those things for free?

Taking away the gyms, libraries and such won’t deter this guy if that’s the case, and honestly, it won’t necessarily deter others as well. Not to excuse criminals for their actions, but for criminals who did not live a “good life,” making prisons conditions less uncomfortable isn’t going to bother them if their mindset is “how is this different from the way I’ve lived most of my life.”